Hello, Sheena -

You aren't that far out with your guesses. Annie and I are both the children of chartered accountants, and aged 23 to 25 I had an unhappy two years working for a bank (unhappy, but it was where I met Chris Gielgud, the guy with whom I have been working on the book of imaginary countries over the last 44 years). The banking was good in some ways. It got me out of the company I had been keeping up to then: prep school from age seven, public school and Cambridge, where I studied history and wanted to become a history academic.

Why did I decide on clinical psychology at 25 which involved me in another first degree and a higher degree after that? Six years. A friend from Cambridge, whom I kept in touch with, suggested it. "Why not become a clinical psychologist?" It did sound rather appealing! A bit grand. And slightly mysterious. He had become an academic psychologist himself, i.e. university based, and pursued a research career. So, a very different path from mine. But I think by then I knew I wanted to be a clinical practitioner and mainly see patients.

Regarding luck. Well, after visiting a rather terrifying learning difficulties hospital called Harperbury, I decided I couldn't hack it. I can describe the experience to you sometime if you like. I had just finished the BSc. and I threw away all the clinical training course application forms I had sent off for. I then received the offer of a place on what was then probably the country's best clinical training course. At the time they didn't interview. Had they interviewed, I think they would have realised my misgivings. I threw the offer in my waste paper basket. The next day I took it out again. The day after that I accepted the offer.

Perhaps my greatest luck though was to be taught by such good people at the Institute of Psychiatry. One in particular, on the verge of retirement, came to treat me rather as his disciple. He greatly influenced the way I approached my work over the next thirty-five years. I worked mostly with long term psychiatric problems. About 1,000 patients in all. For the first half of my career that meant the "bins". After that, I worked more in community settings (only ever for the NHS) and involved myself in several training courses. I retired in 2009 and wrote a book called The Content of Psychological Distress. A little hard to describe the book, but in terms of its subject matter it represented something just a little like the sort of book I would have wanted to have been able to read as a trainee. One book, three book chapters and perhaps six articles. Rather fewer than Messrs Fonagy and Bentall.

I agree with you in what I take you to be saying about the importance of hearing clearly what patients are saying to you. That's right and proper. But it is also the only way to understand what's really going on.

What took you into social work and how did you find it?

Sheena, I had forgotten the bit of the Peter Fonaghy story about him coming here alone aged 15. That would have been in 1967. Presumably his parents left Hungary in 1956 and moved to France when he was 4. He'd no longer have been a refugee at the time he came on here. The family he lived with on arrival in the UK (and finds little to say about) were perhaps connected with his own family in some way? It does sound a very peculiar decision of his father's.

Regarding my own route into clinical psychology, it was really quite tortuous and required a good bit of luck. It was certainly easier than PF's, mind you. I was 32 by the time I qualified and I think it is a lot easier to start this kind of work at 32 than at say 25, when one has very little adult life experience and your very distressed patients are all older than you!

Just listened to all of both. Nice to re Ist all the different theories etc attachment and UPR used a lot in social work and behaviourism in advertising ( basically getting into the minds of people to sell them crap they don’t need) I liked the bit re Ruchard school report “far to interested in pycology for his own good” and the awful traumatic even if his brother dying But confused how Peter was a refugee aged 15 but had parents in France who sent him over gear as usually they are classified as unaccompanied minors from counties re torture against human rights etc but maybe it was different then. CBT is the trendy ones but I also liked task centered and use a lot then and still to help people but also a bit of matalisation. I’m a shit righter but did my dissertation on “do people with dyslexia have a pre dispotion to crime” partly as they fail the education system and deviate to crime but also they don’t like rules and they have creative lateral ways of getting round things” thanks Jack for sharing x

Thanks for sharing Jack, interesting listening.

The interviews make me wonder about your journey into clinical psychology...